Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. Not the Jesus of the Koran, written by Muhammad the self-appointed prophet, and not the Jesus of Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed apostle. While Gamaliel was seemingly somewhat relaxed in his view of the Torah, Paul seemed to take it so seriously, that he believed the Christians truly did deserve to be persecuted for believing in a false Messiah. When Paul began the training that ultimately led him down the road of encounter with the risen Christ on the way to Damascus, we actually have no details. Any help is much appreciated, in advance! Paul says that he was taught by Gamaliel. The command given by our Lord and Savior Is not a Pharisee speaking alone It came rather through your apostles Matthew Peter and John, If a Pharisee boasts proudly Those men added nothing to my message He doesnt speak for Jesus His words are nothing more than garbage, Bibliography All quotes in quotation marks are from the writings of the Apostles Matthew John and Peter in the Bible, mostly the Red Letter words of Jesus. This gets Paul in trouble and that section of Acts is basically a dissertation by Paul stating he never taught against the law but adheres to it. It ignores the previous verse, 2 Timothy 3:15, which clearly indicates that Paul was NOT referring to his own letters when he wrote the words All Scripture.. Tobit is a good reference In the Babylonian Talmud, Zevahim 97b and 100b there are statements given in the name of Rabbi Akiva that in the case of an unclaimed body, if no one is attending to it, the responsibility for the buriasl of this corpse falls on this person, who must do it despite any obstacles, regardless if one is a High Priest or Nazirite, neither of whom are allowed to become tamei, ritually impure. I got lots of note on it I thank God and I praise God. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. IT should be heretical. Acts 22:3 - "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of In fact, it is in this capacity where he is first mentioned in Acts 5. A better resource would be Shaye Cohen, The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties (University of California Press, 2001). (11). While his academic eloquence and Oxbridge accent package his presuupositional as carrying high credibility, it too frequently in substance simply does not. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. Love, Love, Love. (In other words, the second commandment, the love of man, without the love of God. Modern day Christianity has more of its roots in Constantine. Yes I agree its a commandment given by Jesus, its not optional, and it applies to us today. Supposition isnt the problem. I am enjoying the discussion and information/opinions/wisdom here. It addresses exactly what I was thinking, and its thorough. If you dont agree with my interpretations and applications of the facts, fine. Jesus warned us about the Pharisees in Matthew chapters 15 & 16, and quoted the Prophet Isaiah regarding them: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. . The Apostle Paul met him during his second missionary journey and he became Paul's companion and missionary partner along with Silas. Is it a commentary on the book of Acts in blog form? I think that we should use Pauls training from Gamaliel as a background to understanding his theology because most of his theology is based off of his human teacher and was added on by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you can contribute some insight? That is the order of address in near eastern culture and especially the Sanhedrin, being the Nazarite or the one ran by corrupted Pharisee and Sadducee. Not to mention I highly doubt you have a Phd in any area of academia or even known any grasp of Hebrew or Greek. Wright (and others) point out that Gamaliel II seems more, er, pacifist Acts, while Paul seems to want to zealously pursue those who are accusing the High Priest of killing an innocent man. But Ive branched out into quite a few other books of the New Testament, and some Old Testament as well as frequent book reviews. Why insist that the words of this one special person automatically override the words of Jesus and everyone else in all history, and he doesnt need to have a second witness to confirm his testimony? Sometimes, Paul was wrong. Had Paul studied under the great rabbi Gamaliel, he would have learnt the scriptures in the Hebrew lan. http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html. Gods commandments are found in the Law of Moses and the Prophets, which Jesus came to FULFILL, (not to abolish, as the false apostle Paul the Pharisee taught.) The Astounding Conversion of Paul How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel? One possibility is that Paul was not of the Hillel form of Pharasism, but rather the more conservative Shammaite party. Makes sense, but I could not prove this. These towns created laws that anyone in the town must worship these gods in order to buy, sell, trade or commute in the city. From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. Perhaps on the basis of a preserved tradition that he oversaw the body of St. Stephen. This contradicts the clear specific teaching of Jesus about the first and greatest commandment and the second. Polhill goes on to talk about Paul studying Greek and by him studying under Gameliel and Hellenism, he would be around the gymnasium. There were no other New Testament books, and the Hebrew Scriptures were the Old Testament which was irrelevant, according to the heretic Marcion.) Meaning people who believed in the Moshiach as Yeshua. Paul, Silas, and Timothy desired to enter Asia to spread the gospel there, but the Holy Spirit prevented them. Shaul and Yehusa were both Jews who practiced Judaism, worshiped in synagogues, at the temple and were part of Jewish society and culture. Gymnasiums were built for these people who participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked. Was he not in the Sanhedrin when Jesus came before them? Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts. More Wright supposition! In 2019 he published a commentary. That is incorrect. One syllable, beginning with a consonant. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon.. [Luke 6:12-14], Again three chapters later, When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. [Luke 9:1-2], .3) Gospel of Matthew which is organized by theme, not necessarily in chronological order. However the church now says the law has been done away with and they have replace Israel. FWIW, the name is spelled Ron Moseley. Paul was probably making reference to some of the Hebrew Scriptures, quite likely including the Law and the Prophets. He came so we can turn from darkness And into His glorious light. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. Paul had decided to preach to gentiles apparently out of his own revelatory experience that this was the mission that had been given him by God when God called him to function as a prophet for this new Jesus movement. Law. Now, we have got a complete detailed explanation and answer for everyone, who is interested! 2 : any of numerous moths whose gregarious larvae spin communal nests usually in trees. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Blessings following the Jesus of the Gospels. They didnt celebrate easter, christmas, saunday. Study sets, textbooks, questions. I. Er was the first person God killed for being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ). While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. What was his last name? And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become like Paul. But I digress, James, we had a good run. In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people! Or is it possible that Paul privately harbored more overall agreement with Gamaliel/Hillel than with Shammaite Pharisees, and that Paul felt himself to be a lone dissenter in rare cases (Christians) against his former masters legal hermeneutics of mercy? And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. So 7:12 cannot stand alone as One Commandment. If yes, then are Pauls subjective states really discernible as correlates to these two different schools based only on Pauls texts? This does not seem so radically opposed to Rome. We can know Gods will. If you continue to post long rambling and inaccurate responses I will ban you from the site. Im following Jesus. I really will Stand up, stand up for Jesus, and wave his banner high- just not right now in 1973. God wants to welcome anyone into His family who has the desire to seek, follow, obey, trust, and love God. Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. The Tanak wasnt the issue. !hum !! whats d equivalence of studying at d feet of Gamaliel to todays education. Who was Gamaliel in the Bible? Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. Although in the Bible there are verses speaking about Pauls sister and nephew, there are no references to Pauls wife. "Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. There is also a fair bit of controversy about Paul. 3). Yes, Christians are the new Pharisees and because of Paul will never figure it out. ), In essence, it is also the same principle as what Eve did in the Garden of Eden, forgetting about the Tree of Life, which is the first tree in the middle of the Garden, and instead referring to the second tree as the tree that is in the middle of the garden. [Genesis 3:3 & 2:9 2:17, 3:24], Kind of like the Pharisees with Jesus, who were pushing the false idea that we can consider ONE commandment in the Law, alone in isolation, to be the greatest commandment in the Law., Or like today, false teachers in the Chrislam Purpose Driven Seeker Sensitive Emergent Liberal Ecumenical New Age world church movement pushing the false idea that the ONE RULE is Loving God and Neighbor together.. Acts 26:4. Since Paul clearly gives his yeshiva and his lineage, it shows he wasnt a Christian before and after Damascus. They elevate the 4 Gospels above all other Scriptures, giving the 2 highest places of honor to the Gospels of Matthew and John and they have a special high place for Revelation too. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status Lets stick to what the Word says and not look for other answers which are not guaranteed but are assumptions. No it is true and I do know what im talking about since ive been a Yeshiva student for years and learning under well versed Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis. Perhaps Gamiliels views influenced Pauls personal comments on marriage in 1 Cor 7 (Polhill, Paul and his Letters, 30). The quicker we do it, the more profitable it is for us. Paul cannot stand alone in opposition to Jesus and everyone else. Yes, this subject can get indepth, but I think it is better myself to keep it simple, and what we can know, from Scripture itself. Especially to a yeshiva student studying to be a Chazzan. But until 1956 he was Saint Gamaliel according to the Catholic Churchs Roman Martyrology. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. The underlying unspoken assumption is that The Bible (66 Books) was given to us by God as one book and its all equal in level of authority, priority, and importance. The irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said NOT to do. THey were called Nazarites or Netzarim (plural) or believers of the MEssianic movement (of that time) and were a sect of Judaism. Love is all you need. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. Acts 22:3. [Matthew, John, Revelation, 2 Peter NIV], Jesus is The Way to God The real Jesus of the real Apostles But false teachers come and pervert Gods Word With twists and turns and jostles, My sheep listen to my voice Jesus said for us all to hear I know them, and they follow me He doesnt run when a wolf appears, He calls his own sheep by name Its not the witchcraft of a distant stranger Not just repeating the magic words And then thinking you are out of danger, Our Father in Heaven wants to talk to you He can hear you loud and clear And He sent His Son Jesus to inhabit the earth So that all who want God can draw near, Real prayer is a conversation At least thats what God wants it to be We talk in the garden in the cool of the day When we are part of His family, Only Jesus never disobeyed God Hes the only immaculate conception The Holy Spirit comes in His Name Dont listen to the voice of deception, If a false apostle preaches I became your father, imitate me He doesnt speak the words of God Its just Boss Paul the Pharisee, And if a heretic now claims to be The Churchs universal pastor His words should be ignored They lead to nothing but disaster, Jesus did not just teach The Way He IS The Way, my friend Repeating the mantra of Marypaulhammad Is nothing but a dead end, Bibliography all quotes in quotation marks are the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter 10. Why do you want Paul to act like a Pope in Corinth, someone who oversees all aspects of the church? Then the Paulist Establishment church wont persecute me, but the other Jesus People will know that Im still keeping the faith and not inhaling., What I really need is a short catchy slogan to let my fellow hippies know what is expected of them in the Establishment Church now in 1973, regarding the issue of Paul the Pharisees sins. There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts. Thanks for the pointer. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? Mosley is actually studied under Flusser. Its no stretch to say Gamaliel was a Hillelite and Saul was a Shammaite. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of thrones rather than twelve thrones as he had previously. Yeshua quotes many of them and in many cases agreed or corrected their rulings. Ron Mosely and the archaeology team has gone through great lengths to disprove your theory by presenting actual archaeological evidence.. Gravity. We need to remnber that scripture was written to do four basic things: Teach, Train, Correct and Rebuke. But you are still not a Muslim when our Quran is incorruptible and agrees with the teachings of Issa (p) more so than theology of Orthodox Church or any Christian denomination! The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. Paul was a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions without fault. St. Paul was always proud of his Roman citizenship, indeed I think we can surmise biblically, that Paul was always something of a Jewish Pharisee, and too a Jewish-Hellenist, but foremost caught-up in his calling as an Apostle of Christ! Here is how Jesus answered that question: #1 One of the teachers of the law asked him [Jesus], Of all the commandments, which is the most important?, The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. When we look at Pauls teachings and testimony about himself, (in his letters that make up 1/3 of the New Testament,) we should NOT immediately ask ourselves; what did Paul say, what did Paul mean, and how does this apply to my life? The fundamental question is NOT what was in the mind of Paul?, Before any of that, the FIRST question to ask is; does Paul agree with Jesus, who came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?, Paul contradicted himself, and his teachings and testimony about himself dont harmonize with the teachings of Jesus (or with Lukes record of his life.) When P. Long said above that he was an ultra conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, it made me think of this situation more in terms of the present times. . He was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. I am not sure we can know, but Aramaic seems likely, although Scripture would be studied in Hebrew. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel?, As a devout young Jewish man who was taught by quite a peaceful, que sera sera, member of the Sanhedrin, it is somewhat surprising that Paul (Saul at the time) would be one to persecute Jewish Christians so vehemently. I interpret 6 months of silence to mean: even if no one here has the courage to agree with me publicly, no one in the world can open a Bible and prove me wrong from the Bible text on these specific points Ive raised here. Is Paul a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus? And Christians do it with pride as there is no Trinity and the Bible doesnt say there is OR that God is more than 1. Paul's impact on Christianity is enormous and cannot be overstated. Perhaps a foundation stone? (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. Stop pitying yourself, you are not being persecuted. It seems that people want to limit the intervention of God in the lives of people he intends to use. Paul would never have slowed down on his preaching to write the books in the bible we have to learn from, so God put him in prison. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. These would be lofty words for a law abiding Pharisee to be speaking and Paul obviously saw Christ as the laws fulfillment. I think Sam is right (somewhere up the thread), one can differ from his teacher, sometimes radically. I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. [Romans 13:8-10, Leviticus 19:18]. This is simply not the case and you need to read a bit more widely than you have. It is the drastic nature of the difference in his life after he surrenders to Jesus that testifies to the Power and Truth of who Christ is, as well as to the wonder of the great mystery that is later revealed to Paul! I am one of those who obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [Revelation 12:17] No Im not perfect without sin, and No I dont know everything now. Because we must establish a matter by the testimony of two or three witnesses, especially something as important as What is the Word of God. No one else in the pages of the Bible besides Paul ever said anything like All Scripture is God-breathed. And we can but make some comparisons in ourselves. Therefore, in times when there is no clarity, we should end there and not come up with our own assumptions. There is a fine line to be drawn, sure God uses who we are to accomplish his will, but Paul was changed at his conversion. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. You should have hired a PR firm to promote your name and make if famous. If it wasnt for his prior teaching and influence, then he would not of had the zeal and passion. Christians threatened his view and interpretation of the law until his conversion in Acts 9. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. [Philippians 3:12-13] (Response- They say third times a charm. IMHO, most of the sports analogies are from the Olympic styled games which were found throughout the empires. He just doesnt suddenly become submission to government and punishment, or in his words a prisoner of Jesus Christ. He is, at least, in some small way returning to what he could have been taught by Gamaliel. The Holy Trinity isnt Jesus, Paul, and Chuck. How about written in stone in heaven (in other words, for eternity.) ), STEP 1) Paul said; I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man. [1 Timothy 1:13] (Response- Those were Sauls sins, before Jesus called him. Something I would like to believe, though! There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. Take a piece of scripture and make nutty doctrines/traditions out of them. In Acts 5:34 he appears as an advocate of the nascent congregation of Jesus' disciples in Jerusalem and is called "a Pharisee, a teacher of the Law, held in honor by all the people.". Since the entire ministry framework both Yeshua and Paul are 100% Jewish, meaning adherence oral and written law, you are to view it from that lense. Wow, theyre dropping like flies. Without such a solid basis in the Torah and the Jewish Law that he got from studying under Gamaliel, I doubt Pauls conversion and ministry thereafter would have been as impacting or provocative. / Line ID 0840450211. This is the reason why Yeshua said that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching. ), If you cant prove me wrong, you dont have to say Im right, you dont have to agree, but dont say that Im wrong. If you are sure Im wrong but you dont have time to prove it, that means you are either lazy, willfully ignorant, or are breaking the 9th of the Ten Commandments, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.. Listen to him! [Mark 9:7], The Apostle John recorded the testimony of John the Baptist: I have see and I testify that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34], In contrast, Hundreds of years later Muhammad came along and wrote: God has no son.. Just open the Gospels, especially Mathew, which has you in mind, and listen to the voice of Yeshua. The rule is- never step on the Hat, just keep dancing around it. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. This is a question our experts keep getting from time to time. In regards to Gamaliel, based off of Acts 5:35-40, he seemed to be a wise teacher. But Pauls teachings drive one up the wall. Mainstream Judaism also reject Josephus and its evident that he was clearly Jewish. Since the garage is smaller, we can finish that quicker. I find it interesting to look at this perspective that you pointed out, PLong: He was an ultra-conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view. Everyone seems to give Saul a bad rap (and rightly so) for his actions towards believers before his conversion, however, this at least gives us a context to understand him better. Its encouraging that God can use imperfect messengers like them, because it proves He can also use an imperfect man like me to advance His kingdom, when I humble myself, repent, and obey His commands. May I ask which verses of Scripture you are basing this on? Forgive me, but it easier to cite the following from the Wikipedia. I choose to believe the testimony of multiple eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus and who knew Jesus personally. Jesus came to fulfill Law and Prophets and He will. (Rom. Pharisee ruled that executions created a bloody Sanhedrin and if you had more than one a year, it was considered a bloody Sanhedrin. His most recent book is The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World (Rockridge, 2022). My buddy has a new friend from a Baptist background that seems really smart and good with words. Dr. Phillip you have been an inspiration to me here is a new poem. 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